Curse

-Loki- · Mar 09, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Because Arenanet has proven the only way they know how to get people to be interested in in stuff is to make it very powerful at release, thus new classes break PvP for quite a while (Ritual Lord Ritualists, Avatar of Grenth, Paragons in general, though Assassins weren't that bad at release, they were pretty underpowered).

Jakerius · Mar 09, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

I think some of the fear also comes from too much choice. You have 8 slots to fill in a party, with 10 classes. You need a healer, so do you take a Monk or a Ritualist? Okay, you take a Rit. Unfortunately, you thought the Rit knew how to play a Resto build, but turns out he's only ever played Spirit Spam until now. Not only do you have to filter classes, you have to filter the players that play those classes. Too much choice.

NeHoMaR · Mar 09, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07

About individual skills for PvE and PvP, I wrote about long time ago in this forum. Anyway, it's seem Arenanet is starting to make that, if the news about Ch4 are true (50 skills for PvE only)

ZenRgy · Mar 09, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

As much as new classes are fun to explore (And exploit for some), it would put the game in more of a mess than it's already in.

However the latest update is a shining light of hope.

Yichi · Mar 09, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Because Anet doesn't seem to think about balance and imbalance when they create new classes and concepts for these classes. At the moment, shadowstepping is one of the most broken things going in PVP. Before it was Avatars, Rit Lord Ritualists, the Paragon as a whole, theres a few others that were broken down to skill and not primarily the class themselves. The problem becomes, while the idea looks great on paper, that it isnt feesable as an in-game concept.

antialias02 · Mar 09, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

I dunno. It's not my job to balance the game, so I'm not going to say that ANet shouldn't add more professions because Izzy's job would get too hard. (*I* have faith in you, man.) Even so, the game is more balanced than people care to realize or understand: just because an Assassin can 1v1 certain Mesmer builds of mine doesn't mean that Assassins are fundamentally more overpowered than Mesmers. This balance concept extends even to the 8v8 level.

Sure, there are combinations of skills that end up being more synergistic than others - that's the whole point of the game: to find the skill combinations that allow victory in PvP and PvE. You only hit "broken" when a skill or skill combo achieves victory with no reasonable counter.

There are, at current, a lot of counters. I don't think two new professions would really throw the game out of whack. In all reality, it could mean that there are new and exciting ways to add more counters to the game (ie: a way to hinder shadowstepping - though there already are a few, they're just not in wide use).

Two new professions every release, for me, adds a lot of charm and diversity to the game. I get very excited primarily to see what cool classes I will be playing. I would be quite disappointed if Ch. 4 had no new professions whatsoever.

Plague · Mar 09, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

If it doesn't have two new professions, hopefully we still get two more slots. That means I can finally make a Mesmer and Elementalist!

SpeedyKQ · Mar 09, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I don't know, I think 10 professions is plenty of variety. I'm not sure that they can come up with 2 more professions that don't overlap too closely what we already have.

I'd rather they keep adding depth to the existing 10, instead of spreading things too thin. The developers' resources are finite, and the more professions there are, the fewer skills, armors, and other goodies each profession gets with each expansion. (Assuming the rumors are wrong, and we will have more than 1 more GW expansion ever.)

Also, I don't want to make any more characters. I feel like I'm at my limit with 8, so any new professions are going to be wasted on me anyways.

Age · Mar 09, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I've always been more of a core person has to preferring the the original 6 classes and balancing groups out during mission.I would still say some classes are still over powered like the Derv is still.I won't say how but they shouldn't be able to do a certian run.

Winstar · Mar 10, 2007, 03:18 AM // 03:18

There is nothing in _principle_ that makes new classes and skills a problem. There is no reason they can't be introduced properly so that they are interesting and balanced. The problem is the track record of the designers and testers up to this point, whatever reasons there are for this happening. Speaking for its effect on PvP: In Factions Rits were absolutely stupid and made games worse and were an annoying defensive nightmare while assassins were underpowered for the most part except in their roll as gankers. The other problem is that the characters were extremely one dimensional. The core classes were really flexible and could be used in a variety of ways.Sins basically could gank, Rits could spam spirits. Many moons later Sins are still one dimensional and rits, in an attempt to make use of their other non-spirit skills, had the channeling line broken in half so that yet another nerf was recently required to fix it. Nightfall was worse in terms of the new classes. Paragons came in insanely overpowered and have been nerfed over and over, even after the final skill balance weekend. Their shouts were nuts and akin to enchantments that couldn't be removed (another problem with Rits and weapons). Dervish forms were busted and required reworking as well. But again, there was no subtly or flexibity in these classes. Instead of introducing interesting skills that were flexible and took thought to use in various interesting and diverse ways they introduced nutso skills that slapped you upside of the head and screamed I'm broken use me like X.

All of this has played a role in eroding the PvP player base. I'd love to see new classes if they were interesting flexible and not broken in half, but given the track record I don't know if there is the willpower/personpower to do so.

BryanM · Mar 10, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Flexibility isn't really the name of the game in Guild Wars. When new skills are introduced, they will do one of two net things to the game:

1. They will introduce more power to some task.
2. It will do nothing.

As Extend Conditions has shown us: the power does creep both ways, but the only that matters in constructed play is how it goes UP.

Now if there were some mode where the skills you had available were randomized, that would make the 9/10 of the dross actually RELEVANT to Guild Wars.

Saying Assassins are one dimensional is kind of blah-blah. They can offspike, and they have some hAxes for degen team builds. Other guys:

Bow Rangers: How many of them don't carry Distracting Shot and Savage Shot?

All classes suffer from "one dimensionalness" to a degree. A warrior that isn't dealing damage or a Prophecies runner? Pffft times two.

Having a billion skills doesn't mean having a billion choices.

New classes don't mess anything up to a higher degree than new skills. Just because Shelter and Recuperation were extremely good defensive skills, doesn't mean the 5-energy Blinding Surge didn't mess things up even worse.

Oh... I guess the reason people hate new classes is they hate change. Same reason they hate the noifs and the buffs and thinking and stuff.

Winstar · Mar 10, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

No people don't hate new classes because they hate change...Again, I and many others would like new classes if they were properly made coming in.
Assassins are very one dimensional and as a primary class never get used for anything but insta-kill spikers who make use of the best chain possible given the skill set at a given time. Rits spirit spam was defensivly overpowered ruined games for a long time when factions came out.

As to core classes, Rangers as a class have been pretty flexible. Being used defensively (trappers), disruption toons (sav/dist etc), spike toons (r-spike), pressure toons (apply, barbed, burning), gankers (burning, broad head), Runners (crip shots), Even melee (thumpers of various historical flavors. This is a lot more diversity than assassins have ever seen. Warriors Are damage dealers, but they different ways in which you can deal damage with them, and the different roles they can play in builds make them waaay more versitile than any other melee classes since introduced ever were.

I have to agree with you that the problem is not just with new classes but new skills generally, but this doesn't mean the classes and their abilities weren't rediculous and far more problematic when introduced than the core characters which by the time of factions were quite solid imo. You can't seriously think that paragons, dervishes and rits as they were introduced were ok. Come on...

Fallen Hunter · Mar 10, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

I don't want new classess simply because I feel obliged to try out the new classes, which means my other characters get neglected. I simply have too many characters. My paragon is still level 11 :S

Mad King Corn · Mar 10, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I don't nessessarily fear new classes as I fear what Anet will do to nerf it as soon as I start to enjoy using it like my Ritualist and Paragon. Both the Paragon and Ritualist were at one time my favorites, now I hate playing them

Winstar · Mar 10, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

The problem is that people want gimmicks. People want to see crazy shit that blows stuff up good even if its bad for the game. People will pay for gimmicks but in the end it can't happen or it will ruin the game on either side of the player divide.

tomcruisejr · Mar 10, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Introduction of new classes to play with is good because it freshens the game. The only problem is that there seems to be no balancing done/the balance ain't that satisfactory with the new classes before they are released. I have observed that these new classes are made to be so good and after giving them a week or three of exposure, they are nerfed.

Winstar · Mar 10, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Introduction of new classes to play with is good because it freshens the game. The only problem is that there seems to be no balancing done/the balance ain't that satisfactory with the new classes before they are released. I have observed that these new classes are made to be so good and after giving them a week or three of exposure, they are nerfed.

Yeah, it would be great to have new classes and reams of new skills if I could believe that it would be done properly. The problem is the track record on that account is bad.

If the introduction of new classes stopped following this progression,

(Testing Weekend) Uber Broken > Release (Really Broken) > (Nerf 1) Pretty Broken >...>(Nerf n) Sorta fixed, ultimately overkilled perhaps.

life would be good. You would stop frustrating PvP players with another stupid ladder season with a new classes release. You would also not piss off PvE players who get used to powerful skills only to see they ripped away over and over.

New classes and skills, enticing and a breath of fresh air. New classes and skills that are properly balanced from the start, priceless. (or at least worth a small monthly fee....)

Skyy High · Mar 10, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Assassins' not strong? Is that why they just got nerfed?
Ritualist overpowered? Then why can't I find a group in DoA?

He was talking specifically about when the classes were released, not the changes they've accumulated since then.

Takuna · Mar 10, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

I actually like the new classes. If you don't want to be them, then don't.

And there seems to be alot of negative words about the assassin floating around, the funny thing being that some say they're rubbish and some some that they're too good... Why don't people moan about the mesmer? They're not that good in PvE but they can rule in PvP, depending on what you're targeting.

Winstar · Mar 10, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takuna

I actually like the new classes. If you don't want to be them, then don't.

And there seems to be alot of negative words about the assassin floating around, the funny thing being that some say they're rubbish and some some that they're too good... Why don't people moan about the mesmer? They're not that good in PvE but they can rule in PvP, depending on what you're targeting.

I think you're missing the point. The issue of balance, which is the main reason why people object to the addition of new classes given ANets track record with them, isn't an issue of personal choice. If I choose not to run a class or use skills that are clearly overpowered when it is introduced that isn't going to stop some other guild from running it because of the power level (see grenths dervishes, searing, discord, ritspike, spiritspam, paragon energy and defensive boosts, etc etc etc). It has nothing to do with my own like or dislike of the class or the idea of the class, it has everything to do with the effect these classes have on the game.

Assassins where rather underpowered when they came in, and they were a bit one dimensional. Over time they were buffed more and more until suddenly you have the shadow prison burst sins who were insane insta killers. But regardless, they remained rather one dimensional. I'm not sure I understand about the moaning about mesmers...they had some overpowered things when nightfall came out but they have always been, imo, a great class in PvP. I've never really played with them in PvE much, but from screwing around with people in the guild with mesmers in some high level areas of the game they proved pretty successful.